A thrill records of “Today with George Stephanopoulos” broadcasting on Sunday, April 20, 2025 on ABC Information is listed below. This duplicate might not remain in its last type, might be upgraded and might consist of small transcription mistakes. For previous program records, see the “Today” records archive.
JONATHAN KARL, ABC “TODAY” CO-ANCHOR: And Legislator Van Hollen joins me currently.
So, you had this amazing journey to El Salvador. When you arrived, you required or you asked to see Abrego Garcia, you were emphatically rejected. And afterwards all of a sudden, they brought him to see you.
Describe what– what– what took place?
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): Well, you’re right. I was rejected by the vice head of state. I after that next the following day attempted to drive to CECOT jail, which is this infamous jail.
KARL: Yeah.
VAN HOLLEN: Soldiers swung me sideways of the roadway concerning 3 kilometers out. I stated, what are you doing? They stated they were provided orders not to permit me to continue.
KARL: Not also to obtain within miles of CECOT.
VAN HOLLEN: Yeah, 3 kilometers. I inquired if they recognized anything concerning the wellness of Abrego Garcia, they stated they recognize absolutely nothing concerning it.
We had a variety of interview in El Salvador explaining that they were complicit in this unlawful system with the Trump management and explaining that it’s unlawful under worldwide regulation to avoid any type of interaction with a– with a detainee.
KARL: His family members had not spoken with– no one had any type of call for– for weeks.
VAN HOLLEN: That’s right. This is a person that was simply abducted off the roads of Maryland, placed in a pair aircrafts, really did not recognize he was mosting likely to El Salvador and winds up in one of the most infamous jail.
KARL: Just how did you wind up conference with him after that? What took place?
VAN HOLLEN: I assume eventually, the head of state of El Salvador recognized it was looking actually poor to have this America, he or she that had actually been made off from America, from the roads of Maryland in among their jails and unable to connect. So, I wound up obtaining a telephone call claiming, we will certainly bring him to your resort which’s exactly how we satisfied.
KARL: So, did you stroll right into a catch, though? I indicate, he– they bring him to your resort, he remains in the private garments. And you consulted with him. We– we– we– saw the pictures that the– you produced the photo of conference with him, you recognize, the start of the conference. You’re resting there. You’re– you– you’re consuming alcohol water and speaking with the man in the resort entrance hall, I presume. And afterwards eventually, they generate these like, you recognize, glasses that resemble margarita glasses?
VAN HOLLEN: No, it was– it had not been a catch. My objective was– my objective was to meet him.
KARL: Yeah.
VAN HOLLEN: And make certain I can inform his other half and family members he was fine. That was my objective. And I attained that objective.
You’re dead-on that the Salvadoran authorities attempted to trick individuals. They attempted to make it resemble he remained in heaven. They in fact intended to have the conference by the resort swimming pool initially.
KARL: Actually?
VAN HOLLEN: Definitely, definitely. We needed to discuss that. They– they intended to place me ideal neglecting the swimming pool. Actually, if you had a various angle on the video camera shot, you would certainly see the swimming pool.
KARL: Since they did compose– the– Bukele produced a declaration claiming, incredibly increased from the extermination camp and torment and drinking margaritas with you.
I indicate, they were actually attempting to make you resemble you were socializing with someone that they state is a– is a– is a– is a gang participant.
VAN HOLLEN: Look, this is an individual that the USA courts have actually identified was unlawfully drawn from the USA, and my entire objective right here is to make certain that we observe the regulation of regulation, the Constitution, and due procedure civil liberties.
Bukele– of course, he attempted to make it resemble in some way this was– Abrego Garcia was appreciating himself. Every one of that was an arrangement, right? He had the waitress there. Individuals got the waitress to bring these points that resemble margaritas.
KARL: Yeah.
VAN HOLLEN: It simply mosts likely to reveal the sizes that Bukele and Trump will certainly most likely to attempt to trick individuals concerning what this situation is everything about. What this situation is everything about is merely abiding by the High court order to promote his return and make certain he obtains due procedure.
KARL: So what did Abrego Garcia inform you?
VAN HOLLEN: He informed me concerning the injury he had actually been experiencing, both in regards to the kidnapping and the truth that he was initially sent out to CECOT, which is this infamous jail.
KARL: Yeah.
VAN HOLLEN: He informed me just how much he missed his other half and his children. He especially stated his 5-year-old young boy that has autism due to the fact that his– that young boy had actually remained in the cars and truck with him when united state representatives had actually quit them and cuffed him and afterwards taken him away.
So, he explained all that and he informed me that he had actually relocated lately to a brand-new jail center.
So those are a few of the highlights.
KARL: I desire– I desire you to pay attention to something that Gavin Newsom needed to state concerning all the focus this situation has actually obtained.
( BEGIN VIDEO)
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D), THE GOLDEN STATE: This is the diversion of the day, the art of diversion. This is the discussion they desire. This is their 80/20 problem as they have actually explained it.
( END VIDEO)
KARL: Is– is he right concerning the national politics of this? I indicate, the Republicans have actually taken wonderful delight in depicting you as someone that is safeguarding someone that remains in this nation unlawfully, they state as a gang participant, and, you recognize, and– and they’re claiming that they’re attempting to simply impose the regulations.
VAN HOLLEN: Jon, I do not assume it’s ever before incorrect to secure the Constitution and secure due procedure civil liberties. I assume conventional and libertarians when they think of this situation, the concept of someone being robbed of their freedom and in fact in an international jail without due procedure of regulation, that’s something we ought to all defend.
I assume what Americans are tired of is individuals that intend to place their finger to the wind to see what’s taking place. And I would certainly state that any person that’s not prepared to safeguard the humans rights of one guy when they endanger the humans rights of all does not be worthy of to lead.
KARL: As you recognize, the head of state himself has actually been striking you by explaining a few of the elements of Abrego Garcia’s document, consisting of the truth that his other half had an order of defense versus him in 2021, and– and declared some quite severe accusations of misuse, and also that that he had– he had actually restrained her.
Are you worried concerning your protection of someone– undoubtedly, everyone in this nation– also those undocumented immigrants have civil liberties. However are you worried concerning standing so vigorously with someone that has, you recognize, a minimum of a suspicious document?
VAN HOLLEN: I am not safeguarding the guy. I’m safeguarding the civil liberties of this guy to due procedure, and the Trump management has actually confessed in court that he was wrongfully restrained and wrongfully deported. My goal and my objective is to make certain that we promote the regulation of regulation due to the fact that if we take it away for– from him, we do threaten it for everyone else.
And I do intend to mention, Karl, yes, the Trump management is attempting to alter the tale. They’re attempting to sidetrack focus. Below’s where they ought to place their truths: they ought to place it on trial. They ought to set up or stopped talking in court, due to the fact that Court Xinis, that’s the area court judge in this situation, stated and I price quote, they placed no proof connecting Abrego Garcia to MS-13 or to any type of various other terrorist task, unquote. She states that a pair times in her choice.
So, Mr. Head Of State and Republicans and any person included with this, take your truths to court. Do not place every little thing out on social media sites.
Regarding his other half, his other half is the one that is asking all of us to bring him home, so his civil liberties can be appreciated.
KARL: And, as a matter of fact, also if he is a gang participant, that does not indicate you do not have civil liberties, due procedure civil liberties.
VAN HOLLEN: Well, precisely, yet once more, the area to prosecute that remains in the courts and they have actually not place the proof prior to the court in the event. So, once more, set up or stopped talking in court.
KARL: Allow me ask, you likewise, we– we spoke with Tom Homan which we’ll be playing quickly, he was extremely crucial of you not remarkably and stated, you recognize, that he was– he was upset that you would certainly most likely to El Salvador to meet a supposed gang participant. He really did not state declared– yet a gang participant, and when you have actually not taken a solitary browse through to the boundary over the previous 4 years or revealed worries concerning what was occurring at the boundary.
VAN HOLLEN: So I check out that–
KARL: Your reaction?
VAN HOLLEN:– I check out that records.
KARL: Yeah.
VAN HOLLEN: I do not have time to experience all of it. He is existing with his teeth on several areas because– because document. And I have actually been in fact combating MS-13, possibly much longer than Donald Trump ever before said the name MS-13. For twenty years in this area, I aided stand the anti– you recognize, gang– anti-gang job pressure.
However the concept that you can not safeguard individuals’s civil liberties under the Constitution and battle MS-13 and gang physical violence is a really unsafe concept. That’s the concept the head of state wishes to produce. That’s why they’re spreading out all these lies.
Take your– take your info to the court due to the fact that you plainly have actually refrained from doing that, and regard he or she’s humans rights and comply with the order of the High court, which they’re resisting as we talk.
KARL: All right. Legislator Van Hollen, thanks for joining us.
VAN HOLLEN: Thanks, Jon.
KARL: Showing Up, I’ll ask White Home Boundary czar Tom Homan if he concurs with late Justice Anthony Scalia that humans rights relate to everyone in the USA, no matter their supposed criminal offense or lawful condition. We’re back in 2 mins.
KARL: Legislator Van Hollen is– undoubtedly obtained a possibility to meet him, yet he needed to take a trip to El Salvador to obtain any type of info. Is (sic) that problem you in all? I indicate, these are individuals sent out by– I indicate, in his situation, sent out by the USA, and not also a united state Legislator, in his situation, could obtain any type of info concerning his location, or the problem of his imprisonment, without in fact decreasing and making the journey to El Salvador himself?
TOM HOMAN: Well, he undoubtedly recognized his location, due to the fact that he went there to see him. However you recognize what– what’s– what troubles me even more than that is a united state Legislator took a trip to El Salvador on taxpayer cent to meet an MS-13 gang participant, public safety and security hazard, terrorist. I indicate, in the meanwhile, the day prior to he took a trip, a prohibited alien was detained for murder, was launched to the roads instead of recognizing an ICE detainer in his extremely own state.
What worries me is Van Hollen never ever mosted likely to the boundary the last 4 years under Joe Biden, when he had a 600% boost in sex trafficking in ladies and kids. You have a document variety of recognized examined terrorists going across that boundary. You had a quarter of a million Americans pass away from fentanyl overdose as a result of the open boundary. You had more than 4,000 unlawful aliens passed away making that trip, which is a historical document. What shocks me is he’s continued to be quiet on the roast that took place on the southerly boundary. Many individuals passed away, countless individuals passed away. I consulted with numerous Angel mother and fathers that hid their kids that were killed by unlawful aliens. The amount of Angel mother and fathers has he satisfied in the state of– in the state of Maryland? That’s what worries me.
KARL: He states that he has actually done this due to the fact that the problem right here schedules procedure, and it’s complying with a court order. That– you recognize, the High court has stated that the management requires to promote his return so he can survive, have his opportunity at due procedure.
HOMAN: I assume, and I recognize the assist in– yet he’s likewise in the guardianship, he’s a resident, and a nationwide of the nation, so El Salvador would definitely need to coordinate because. However once more, I run out the loophole on that particular. I’m not a lawyer. I’m not prosecuting this situation. We’ll do whatever the, you recognize, the regulation states we need to do. What I assume– I wait the truth I assume we did the ideal point right here. We got rid of a public safety and security hazard, a nationwide safety and security hazard, a fierce gang participant from the USA. ICE knowledge states he’s an MS-13 gang participant. A secret information states he’s an MS-13 gang participant. The nation of El Salvador states he’s an MS-13 gang participant. I assume he’s precisely where he needs to be.
KARL: However you stated that El Salvador would certainly need to coordinate. You believe that if Head of state Trump desired him returned, that he could ask Head of state Bukele to return him, right? I indicate, I indicate–
TOM HOMAN: I am not associated with conversation.
KARL: Head of state Trump can make this occur.
HOMAN: I can not talk about something I do not recognize.
KARL: However what do you assume? I indicate, you recognize Head of state Trump–
[CROSSTALK]
HOMAN:– I can not talk about conversations–
KARL:– you have actually discussed exactly how, you recognize, he can obtain points done. I indicate, if he desired the man returned, he could obtain them returned, right?
HOMAN: I do, I’m not mosting likely to talk about discussions I’m not a component of. I do not recognize what discussions are having, what discussions– that’s having what discussion, what authorities. I’m not in the loophole on that particular.
JON KARL: So much more generally, allow me ask you, I recognize you’re a legislation man. You have actually vouched a vow to promote the Constitution. You did that with your whole job. The basic concept I intend to ask you is, do you– you concur that the Constitution expands– those humans rights that most of us have include everyone in the USA? Everyone–
HOMAN: Yeah.
KARL:– whatever criminal offense they’re implicated of, or despite their lawful condition?
HOMAN: And we have actually adhered to the Constitution. We have actually adhered to the regulation. I am positive that every little thing we have actually done is comply with regulations within the constitutional constructs, definitely.
KARL: Therefore that right of due procedure is something– the Fifth Change right of due procedure reaches everyone that would certainly be deported– they have the opportunity to have a hearing on this?
HOMAN: The size of due procedure is not the exact same under the Alien Enemies Act. That’s why the Alien Enemies Act was produced. Head of state Trump conjured up the authorities he had under the Alien Enemies Act, an act created and gone by Congress and authorized by a Head of state. We’re making use of the regulations on guides, the sculptures on guides, to protect the boundary and get rid of substantial public safety and security dangers and nationwide safety and security dangers to this nation.
KARL: However allow me, allow me obtain even more details on this. The High court has actually long held that humans rights include everyone in the USA. Justice Scalia, the bulk point of view that he created back in 1993 created, [GFX] “it is well developed that the Fifth Change qualifies aliens to due procedure in regulation– of regulation in expulsion process.”
Are you claiming that by conjuring up the Alien Enemies Act that undocumented immigrants are not qualified to those due procedure civil liberties under the Fifth Change?
HOMAN: What I’m claiming, the treatment under the Alien Enemies Act is much less than it is throughout like a Title 8 elimination case, and we’re complying with the regulations of the Alien Enemies Act. Once more, I assume this management has actually adhered to the regulation. They’re making use of laws passed by Congress, authorized by a head of state, to get rid of the terrorists from this nation. I’m not claiming, you recognize– I’m not claiming, I’m not saying right below that no one needs to obtain due procedure. I’m simply claiming there’s a various procedure under the Alien Enemies Act, and much less of a procedure than you translucent Title 8.
KARL: Allow me ask you, do you have any type of agitations concerning sending out individuals to that infamous jail in El Salvador without guarantee that they will ever before have a possibility to go out? Individuals that have no document, have actually not been founded guilty of any type of terrible criminal offenses. Do you have any type of agitations concerning that?
HOMAN: I think we’re getting rid of public safety and security dangers and terrorists– assigned terrorists– to that jail in El Salvador. Tren de Aragua, MS-13 are assigned terrorist companies. What you do not recognize, what a lot of visitors do not recognize, they have not seen or experienced what I have actually seen in my 40 years. I began operating in 1984. I have actually talked with girls as young as 9 that were raped by participants of these gang cartels. I have actually held corps throughout my job. I have actually talked with numerous Angel mother and fathers whose kids were, were eliminated and completely killed by participants of MS 13 that simply really did not eliminate him, they mutilated them, they hurt them. So if individuals used my footwear for the last 40 years, and seen the disaster– perversions I have actually seen, they would certainly recognize that the most awful of the most awful demand to be sent out to a jail like that, due to the fact that we reached secure American residents, we reached propound secure this nation.
KARL: And you’re claiming there’s indisputable, indisputable that everyone sent out to this jail, once more without warranty of any type of right to, to have a possibility to test their jail time, any type of possibility of launch?
[CROSSTALK]
KARL:– and they really did not– none of these individuals, as you have actually recognized, have actually experienced a complete test.
HOMAN: You require to check out the Alien Enemies Act. We comply with the Alien Enemies Act, and you’re chatting like it’s a Title 8 elimination. This isn’t a Title 8 elimination. That’s a various treatment created–
KARL: Yeah, so you’re recognizing–
HOMAN:– created right into regulation by Congress. Unusual Adversaries Act.
KARL: So, no extensive process, no opportunity to show their virtue. Someone’s obtained a poor tattoo.
HOMAN: I’m informing you there’s a distinction.
[CROSS TALK]
KARL: Someone’s been implicated– I indicate, you recognize tattoos belong to the estimation right here. I indicate you could have a tattoo–
HOMAN: That’s one variable of several elements. I functioned– have you, have you remained in an unusual gang team? Trigger I have. Tattoos are just one of several elements that’s mosting likely to establish somebody’s in a gang. That’s not the just one. You can not state, fine, tattoo gang participant, no, there’s various other [unintelligible] contributed to that tattoo. Tattoo’s one variable that contributes to various other elements that makes that decision.
What I’m claiming is you can not overlook a tattoo. That’s, that’s another variable that leads you to think possibly it’s a gang participant. It’s simply not based upon tattoos. It’s based upon a great deal of various other points, yet tattoos among several. However nobody’s eliminated even if of a tattoo.
KARL: To put it simply, the Alien Enemies Act implies you can get hold of someone and you can deport them without an extensive hearing, due to the fact that you have actually identified them a terrorist, due to the fact that you, due to the fact that you have actually stated– you have actually identified that someone belongs to the gang, and for that reason they do not need to go with the extensive procedure of the, of the chance to have a complete hearing. That’s what you’re claiming. I indicate, allow’s simply be clear.
HOMAN: I’m claiming we’re complying with the regulations of this nation.
KARL: OK.
HOMAN: There’s a various treatment each. We’re doing points within the framework of the regulation. We’re doing points lawfully.
KARL: OK.
HOMAN: I wait that. Currently, once more, I’m not a constitutional scholar. I’m not mosting likely to say this in court. That’s what the Division of Justice does, yet we’re– I’m resting right here today, believing we have actually done the ideal point for this country, complying with the regulations and the Constitution of this nation.
KARL: All right. Tom Homan, the Trump management’s boundary czar. Thanks for joining us today.
HOMAN: Thanks.
